ANONYME vélo avant-guerre St.Etienne ?

[Meelis]

Greetings from Estonia !

I`m sorry I can`t speak french. So I have to write in english. At first I must say you have a very nice and very informative forum there !
Recently I bought a restauration project : a bicycle named "France". These bikes were briefly imported to estonia by our military`s economics department in years 1927-1930. It had many "french-specific" features and 5-positions frame number, so it is impossible that it was made in estonia. Few days ago I discovered another bike (very similar to mine) named "LeFuran". So I assumed that both these bikes originate from St.Etienne and maybe I can find some missing parts from france ?
Also, any clues about possible manufacturer of these bikes ?

1) "France" (orwhat has been left of it) : http://www.sisustuslahendused.ee/ratas/
2) My compatriots "Le Furan" with very similar parts : http://fotoalbum.ee/photos/Soobel/sets/764219
3) "France"`s front badge with funny slogan : http://i41.tinypic.com/14lov88.jpg

[Meelis]

Please notice the shape/profile of "France"`s front original rim. We haven`t much seen these shape-type of rims in estonian vintage bicycles - any hint of a possible pre-war french manufacturer ?
"Le Furan" had Henri Gautier`s "L`Inextensible" saddle.
Also I´will post an advertisement of "France" bicycle from 1927 estonian military magazine. My bike has a different chainwheel compared to the one pictured in advertisement.

[Karl]

Hello Meelis.
You certainly already know that up to the second world war, there was thousands of different brands in France. Some of them were genuine brands with in-house production of most of the parts, others were assemblers who bought frame and parts from many factories in Paris or Saint-Etienne. So there's a chance that some of theme have fallen in total oblivion !
This forum has the goal of centralizing as much knowledge as possible but as it's quite recent, inventories are still being built up as France, surprizingly, hasn't been interested in recent vintage and/or ordinary bicycle until recent years.
Anyway, you've come to the right place ! Be sure that people will try to share what they know with you.
Cheers and welcom here .

[Le voyageur]

Welcom Meelis :D
Sorry, but I don't speak english, but I hope that we can help you
bests regards
Jacques


Défense de rigoler les gars je fais ce que je peux

[stellis]

Welcome Meelis............

You found two magnificent bicycles..........

Regards,

[jérémie]

Bonsoir Meelis,

This is my bike E.FRANCE from Orléans.

http://forum.tontonvelo.com/viewtopic.p ... ile+france



Jérémie

[Benoît Macaigne]

Hi Meelis,

You found two really nice bicycles ! I have seen that the frame of the France has suffered of an accident. That would be quite something to repare that... good luck !
Many other members on Tonton vélo are more able to respond than me. I can only see that these are really old bikes. The front badge of the France is quite strange. We expect something like "fabriqué en France" or, eventually, "Made in France", but "Made in french"...??? I'm a bit puzzled. Anyway, the typographic font is typical of the early century (around 1900) and disappears during the first world war.

That all I can say...

Regards,

B.

[Meelis]

Thank you for your kind responses !

As I am planning to restaurate this bike as fully as possible I allready have figured out some ways to re-shape the frame to it`s original pre-accident geometry (needs some pressing, cutting and very careful weldding in order not to heat up the copper-connections). For keeping the correct frame alignment during the work I will build a strong table-type fixing-bench.
Also, maybe you can suggest me some links-shops-enthusiasts in france who are selling anthique bicycle parts (pedals, saddles, handlebars, pumps, frontlights, etc. - becuse these were widely used by many manufacturers and will surely suit to my certain era bike).
For the possible french manufacturer information : at first I assumed automatically that it had something to do with weapons and military (as our importeur was military`s economics department). But on the other hand I haven`t seen such type Manufrance bikes. So it is possibly some other manufacturer. I will be thankful for all the hints !
I guess the best way to pick certain parts is to compare a picture from the advert and certain parts fron "LeFuran". Have you got in france certain type of trade-fairs and meetings for vintage motorcycle & bicycle enthusiasts ? In estonia we do have a handful of such events per year. Actually one of these will take place on sunday. In these fairs you can buy & sell lot`s of stuff for pre- and afterwar cars, motorcycles and bicycles among the other anthique items. One can find a lot of needed parts for german, scandinavian, baltic, estonian, russian etc. bicycles but french manufacturers parts are a little bit harder to find.

[Benoît Macaigne]

To be honest, the best way to find old parts is to visit http://www.leboncoin.fr/annonces/offres ... 9lo+ancien and ebay.

For exemple, I found this : http://cgi.ebay.fr/selle-ancienne-a-dou ... 500wt_1182

Maybe some few words in french would help :
cadre = frame
pédales = pedals
jantes = rims
poignées = grips
vieux , ancien = old
selle = saddle
vélo = bike

Let me know if you're looking for specific stuff...

Ben

[Meelis]

Thank you Ben for good hints, I have allready seen there some useful and interesting items (pumps, saddles, lamps etc.), I`ll try to go through this in the evening hours.. As I understood these are privately posted adverts and if I really need to contact somebody for ordering something I can ask for your guidance and help ?
Anyway, many thanks to you !

Today I managed to find some small but very important parts : like the front "FRANCE. Made in French !" - badge that my bike was actually missing. Also I got an additional chainwheel F-R-A-N-C-E , so I can choose out the better one.

Question : my bike has got a frame nr. 60237, "LeFuran" is missing framenumber. Was it possible that some smaller manufacturers or framemakers didn`t mark their frames for some reason ? And another question : what does a frame number 60237 tell us ? -
It appears that during the years 1927-1930 there were many different series of framenumbers. Somebody managed to find a list of bicycles (describing marques, framenumbers) that were stolen in estonia inbetween 1933-1936. There are 11 "France"`s in the list :

41014, stolen in 1933
45507 1933
46922 1935
47001 1936
47017 1934
47070 1934
47157 1936
51402 1936
51945 1935
55986 1935
56787 1933

It appears that my bike has been imported to estonia inbetween 1929-1930 then (judgeing by framenumber logic). So, was the framemaker or manufacturer (who makes 47xxx-th frame in lets say 1927 and 60xxx-th supposedly in 1930) a small-time or a medium-size company those days in France ?


P.S. : what is the framenumber of earlier pictured Emile France`s bicyclette ?

[Benoît Macaigne]

Tere õhtust,

First of all, you're really welcome, if you need any kind of help be sure I would do my best.
I think you will have some difficulties to find this famous front badge. On the Internet, I didn't found any informations about "France" as a bicycles manufacturer. But maybe some of our members (at tonton vélo) could have some clue...
Concerning your question about de frame number, I not enough educated about old bikes to respond anything... I will ask for informations the other members... I think frame numbers are specific of manufacturer conserned so, the first thing I will do will be to find informations about LeFuran...

I think the last question is for Jérémie, so, I let him respond.

Tere,

B.

[Meelis]

Tere Õhtust !

Excellent estonian, Ben ! For the moment I`m sorry I can`t answer with any longer sentence in french but I have a very good frend who can teach me (By the way, he was living in St. Etienne when he was riding for EC St.Etienne Loire team, later he joined Ag2r as a professional for few seasons. He told me to greet all of the forumers. http://www.siteducyclisme.net/coureurfi ... eurid=2957).

Today i got a chainwheel of the "France" that has got teething in far better condition than the one that is on my bike. Also one guy offered me a frontbadge of "France. Made in french" but it seems there were at least two different franes of "France" and the fixing holes distance on this badge is 60mm. (Should be 45mm. on my bike). Also it has a slightly different design. It is now obvious that there were slight design changes or "facelifts" during the 1927-1930 period. But now i also now that in Estonia there are few 45mm. "France" frontbadges in private collections and as a minimum I can make a good replica-badge for my bike based on these ones.

[henri sneyders de vogel]

Meelis,
I'm beginning to think that your bike isn't a french brand, perhaps it has been imported from France and given a badge 'France',made in french . The fact that there is an ortographic mistake on the badge makes me think that; English isn't the favorite of many French( they say so very often themselves, no critic from my side!) but I never saw a product with such a fault on it!
Begin to look at the different pieces, like hubs, cranks, rims; are there engravings with a brand-name? This could give some clues!
About the framenumber: a french bicycle-manufacturer with a production of about 60.000 bikes with no traces on the net and not known in our forum, that's odd!

[Meelis]

Your thinking is spot on !

Also bicycle enthusiasts in estonia have agreed that those badges are made in estonia or ordered so from abroad (maybe even from france). All kind of lending and copying was very common those days. At the same time I am convinced that this bike is indeed french production (probably an low-cost wholesales option from a bigger manufacturer or a framebuilder, according to my calculations this certain manufacturer produced around 25-40 frames per day).

I have allready looked for bicycles with familiar-looking frame and components in your forum and seen a lots of similar parts (parts that you will never find on german or scandinavian bikes). I`m quite sure that I will find out this bike`s original producer.

I`ll keep you updated...

[henri sneyders de vogel]

Meelis,
I just saw this headbadge, nothing to do with your bike, I suppose, I just give it to you for information; you never know if there is a link!
http://velobase.com/HeadBadgeGallery.as ... 9f4c57c743

[Meelis]

Thank you Henri ! This "La France" seems to be an interesting hint, I didn`t notice this last post for a while.

Piece-by-piece I have started to take apart and clean some parts of my "France" and allready I have found an interesting thing : spokes are of "double-pulled" steel (rayons renforces des deux bouts ? ) and were made by a company named "EDCO". I guess it`s the same swiss company that is producing rims and hubs for modern expencive road-racing bicycles ? At least they were supplying different manufacturers actively since 1920.

Similar type of rayons are on this catalogue photo (it was posted by Ti Claude) :
P1020167.JPG
Also the rims (JANTES ? ) are quite interesting to me. The profile looks exactly like "Jantes speciales pour Ducasble" from the same catalogue (should`nt it be "duacable" ?):
P1020146.JPG
Exactly the same type of profile was also in some other catalogue here, made by "Gravigny", model No. 5 : "pour talons"
Has anybody got similar rims ? Any photos maybe ?

Front hub seems to be unmarked. I will try to take some close-up photos of these details.
And ofcourse I would be hugely thankful for any information considering EDCO "rayons" and these specific-profile "jantes".

[Meelis]

Sorry, here are these pictures :

[henri sneyders de vogel]

Meelis,
Yes the 'double-butted' spokes have been introduced already in the beginning of the century, my Peugeot 1905 has them already!
If you want to buy tires for your 'beaded-edge' rims(jantes à talon), be carefull because you have to know exactly what you need; look on the net how to measure before ordering! If the tire doesn't fit tight you risk to loose the tire on the first corner, I was said!

[Meelis]

Thanks for the information, Henri !

But has anybody ever seen such "jantes" or has got them or even a photo of these ?

[Yves33]

Hello Meelis,

I found this (by chance) and thought you would be interested. It is an advert published in the newspaper Le Petit Parisien on 5 May 1914.

France1914-1.JPG (161.47 Kio) Consulté 6502 fois

France1914-2.JPG (166.53 Kio) Consulté 6502 fois

I think it is the same (but 2 years before) as shown by Claude in the catalogue L'Automotion here :
http://forum.tontonvelo.com/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=3312

Regards,
Yves