Campeur 650 ≈1950 avec frein à tambour a identifier, svp

[bduc61]

Ellenic ! Sans "H"… cher bduc61 ! Le cadreur britannique s'appelait Ellen.

Sorry to contradict ! my mistake was forgetting the s ! not adding the h or a lot of British sources are mistaken, which I doubt !

[Breezer]

Ellenic ! Sans "H"… cher bduc61 ! Le cadreur britannique s'appelait Ellen.

Seatstays = "haubans" en français, cher Joe !
Le "tube de séjour", ça le fait pas !

Okay, all kidding aside, here's a third derivation of the "cross stay" name:

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/gloss_ha-i.html
Hellenic Stays
A frame design in which the seat stays don't go to the seat cluster, but rather cross outside of the seat tube a few inches below the seat cluster, then go on to be attached to the top tube a few inches forward of the seat tube.
Hellenic stays were introduced by (and named for) the British frame builder Fred Helens in 1923, and have been used off-and-on since by frame builders who wish to make their frames visually distinctive. They are of no practical value, and often cause un-necessary complication in brake-cable routing, luggage-rack attachment and installation of frame pumps. The are also slightly heavier than normal frame construction. Recent users of this design include GT, Huffy and Nash bar.
----------------------------

If the French refer to seat stays as "haubans", what do the French call "cross stays" (like Hellenic)?

Thanks,
Joe

[bduc61]

A bit a semantic

crossed stays : haubans croises ( ou helleniques)
Seatstays : haubans
Chainstays : bases
Triple triangle : triple triangle I think GT can probably be granted that ! But will have a look into it.

As much as I respect Sheldon, I would be more careful than he about the utility or advantage of such a design. Need to delve into the Hallotel tandem patent for potential claimed benefits ( first mentionned one is shortened chainstays) see previous VRC link
The Thanet Silverlight article in the review " Cycling" mentions added lateral rigidity because of the seatstays being brazed to both the seattube and toptube. But it has to be said that this 4 points "brazing" has not been allwaysput to practice by the framemakers !

[Breezer]

A bit a semantic

crossed stays : haubans croises ( ou helleniques)
Seatstays : haubans
Chainstays : bases
Triple triangle : triple triangle I think GT can probably be granted that ! But will have a look into it.

As much as I respect Sheldon, I would be more careful than he about the utility or advantage of such a design. Need to delve into the Hallotel tandem patent for potential claimed benefits ( first mentionned one is shortened chainstays) see previous VRC link
The Thanet Silverlight article in the review " Cycling" mentions added lateral rigidity because of the seatstays being brazed to both the seattube and toptube. But it has to be said that this 4 points "brazing" has not been allwaysput to practice by the framemakers !

Thank you!

I imagine each country can rightfully make a claim to crossed stays, in more insular days. In France, maybe it's André Reiss (1935) or Louis Haotel (1934). I'm not sure when it first appeared in the US, but Bill Duehring at GT appears to be responsible for at least increasing its popularity here, in modern times anyway.
http://veloretrocourse.proboards.com/th ... bans-crois

Not sure of advantages. While there are 4 contacts, the seat stay angle is reduced, which gives less bracing relative to the chain stay angle. There are probably more significant ways to achieve light weight and strength. Really, I'm more interested in the STORY behind the seat stays on this black bike. Who made that frame?

I appreciate your help,
Joe

[bduc61]

Joe - you have a PM

[Caillon]

Apologies for having being so positive: I read somewhere the name and never checked! One or two "l"? G2LOQ dirait Invité.

[roulez rouillé]

Hello Joe, hello les Tontons !

Superbe vélo que voilà,
un vrai GlobeTrotter.

Moi, une chose m'étonne : sa colonne de direction.
Elle est semblable à celle de mon tandem A.Singer.
Ton vélo aurait-il une fourche renforcée de tandem ?

Roulez Rouillé !!!


°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°

http://www.levelographe.fr

[Breezer]

Hello Joe, hello les Tontons !

Superbe vélo que voilà,
un vrai GlobeTrotter.

Moi, une chose m'étonne : sa colonne de direction.
Elle est semblable à celle de mon tandem A.Singer.
Ton vélo aurait-il une fourche renforcée de tandem ?

Roulez Rouillé !!!
http://www.levelographe.fr

Oui, je pense avoir vu un tel tandem Singer dans le livre de Jan Heine. Mon vélo a aussi une fourche tandem.

En ce qui concerne cette partie du cadre / fourche, votre vélo est le plus proche de mon vélo. Peut-être que c'est par Singer. Singer a été ma première pensée, mais depuis j'ai appris beaucoup plus sur les constructeurs français.

Y a-t-il quelque chose sur le cadre de "mon" vélo d'expédition noir qui est très non-Singer? J'imagine dans un but comme celui-ci - un voyageur du monde - la construction / conception sera bien au-delà de la normale.

Thanks,
Joe

[Dvonche]

You'll have more answers if you take off all the tape

[Breezer]

You'll have more answers if you take off all the tape :fleur:

Ha! LOL. You know that weighs on my mind… I've never seen a frame so fastidiously protected. I think it took the tape man more time to tape the frame than it took the builder to build it! The taping in itself is a work of art. Early on, curiosity got the better of me--I could not resist un-tapiing the seat tube. I thought for sure I'd discover the Alex Singer logo and solve the mystery once and for all. No such luck. :P

This expedition bike, a wonderful time capsule (yes, with a few additions), was damaged during transit to America. That's when the lights and rack were bent. That's when the ding in the top tube arrived. And when the two generators were nicked. I'd love to find the correct parts, especially the generators and front derailleur. What they would have been, I don't know. I figure the first thing I need to do is determine the maker or at least a build date. Then I stand a better chance of finding the parts needed.

I can fix the top tube ding (hydraulically), but it would be best to unravel the tape to do so. So ultimately I might bail on preserving the frame tape, maybe keeping it for the racks only. My God, in the time just to tape the racks, you could have ridden half way around the world!

Thanks,
Joe

[Dvonche]

I'm pretty sure that the black paint is not original too...

Under the tape and the black paint you should find more clues and peoples here will help you more.

I don't think It's a Routens and the fork looks a lot like a Singer. Time to work on that frame if you want the truth

And yes the guy who did the tape job did a great and long job

[Breezer]

I'm pretty sure that the black paint is not original too...

Under the tape and the black paint you should find more clues and peoples here will help you more.

I don't think It's a Routens and the fork looks a lot like a Singer. Time to work on that frame if you want the truth :)

And yes the guy who did the tape job did a great and long job :biggrin:

Ha. I can tell you REALLY want to know the branding under the tape. :) Me too. The paint looks original, the taping too. It is REALLY on there, leaking oil even. The camera flash maybe shows too many irregularities…

I imagine the customer telling the frame maker, "Don't stress regarding the paint finish, I'm just going to cover it up. I suppose the point was to not draw attention to the bike while on tour. And if it was stolen, and later retrieved, the owner could say to the gendarme, "There are red spots under the tape." (there are). Then he'd peel off the tape, and voilà. Proof of ownership! ...These expedition riders need to be clever. ;)

Red spots: Maybe the rider was a disciple of Wassily Kandinsky? (Feel the trail getting warmer?) Or did knowing the spots were there make the rider climb better?

OKay, you can see I'm forestalling with the knife… Maybe there's a kind of X-ray device for this?

[Breezer]

tout l'esprit Lionel Brans… Chatterton en plus !!

Salut Christophe, tu veux dire celui de Paris- Saïgon, ça ressemble.
Dejoulardi

depart_paris-saigon01.jpg

Ce vélo a certainement des similitudes avec "mon" vélo noir. Lionel Brans a-t-il construit ses propres cadres de vélo? A-t-il construit son cadre de vélo Paris-Saigon?

Thanks,
Joe

[ycenna]

Alex Singer à fait des haubants croisés aussi.....

Avez-vous vu des numéros frappés sur les pattes de fourches gauche et sur la patte arrière gauche ?

[The Bonk]

Ce vélo a certainement des similitudes avec "mon" vélo noir. Lionel Brans a-t-il construit ses propres cadres de vélo? A-t-il construit son cadre de vélo Paris-Saigon?

Thanks,
Joe

Hi Joe,

It seems that Lionel Brans built his own machines. There is reference to Jo Routens riding (and winning) in the Technical Trials in '38 and '39 for Brans.

http://www.ebykr.com/2006/05/28/jo-routens/

On a side note. It makes me wonder whether Routens was inspired to start building after collaborating with Brans.

Incredible bike. I hope you discover the builder.

[bduc61]

Ce vélo a certainement des similitudes avec "mon" vélo noir. Lionel Brans a-t-il construit ses propres cadres de vélo? A-t-il construit son cadre de vélo Paris-Saigon?

Thanks,
Joe

Hi Joe,

It seems that Lionel Brans built his own machines. There is reference to Jo Routens riding (and winning) in the Technical Trials in '38 and '39 for Brans.

http://www.ebykr.com/2006/05/28/jo-routens/

On a side note. It makes me wonder whether Routens was inspired to start building after collaborating with Brans.

Incredible bike. I hope you discover the builder.

And Brans rode his own bike in 1938 too

What puzzles me is that only one example of his work ( the Paris Saigon buke) is a known survivor - I suspect his producation has been very limited in numbers !

[The Bonk]

And Brans rode his own bike in 1938 too

What puzzles me is that only one example of his work ( the Paris Saigon buke) is a known survivor - I suspect his producation has been very limited in numbers !

Après plus de lecture, il semble que Brans n'a pas construit son vélo. Dans le lien ci-dessous, il mentionne quelqu'un d'autre qui fait le travail.

"J'avais toute confiance dans la main experte de mon soudeur, ce mode d'assemblage lui étant familier."
Alors, qui l'a construit?

Désolé pour le derail, Joe.




http://alainlebel.free.fr/serv01.htm

[bduc61]

And Brans rode his own bike in 1938 too

What puzzles me is that only one example of his work ( the Paris Saigon buke) is a known survivor - I suspect his producation has been very limited in numbers !

Après plus de lecture, il semble que Brans n'a pas construit son vélo. Dans le lien ci-dessous, il mentionne quelqu'un d'autre qui fait le travail.

"J'avais toute confiance dans la main experte de mon soudeur, ce mode d'assemblage lui étant familier."
Alors, qui l'a construit?

Désolé pour le derail, Joe.

http://alainlebel.free.fr/serv01.htm

he adds : "car depuis 1933 il lutte pour faire admettre ce procédé dans le monde du cycle." Donc qui soudo brasait depuis 1933 et avait peut être une certaine reputation ?
Je ne vois guere que Reiss (Reyhand) mais il a ete tué en juin 40 ! Donc le mystere reste entier !
https://anciensveloslyonnais.weebly.com ... reiss.html

C'est d'autant plus surprenant que en 1938, au Grand Prix Duralumin, Brans inscrit comme constructeur a 5 machines enregistrées sous son nom. Aurait il perdu la main après la guerre ?

[The Bonk]

Cela m'a fait penser à Reyhand aussi.

[Invité_]

à tous,

1) Lionel Brans peut être constructeur sans souder lui même.

2) Quand il dit "mon soudeur", cela peut être son employé ou un sous-traitant qui lui facture le travail.

3) André Reiss (REYHAND) soudait à l'autogène sans raccord et, à ma connaissance, s'il revendiquait une triangulation spéciale pour les tandems ce ne fut pas le cas pour les haubans croisés.

4) Je reviens sur le mot hellénique, qui, aux dictionnaires de la langue Française, depuis très longtemps signifie "qui vient de Grèce" ou "qui est en relation avec la Grèce". Est-il utile d'employer ce mot pour juste une partie de construction d'un cadre de vélo, qui semble apparaître en Angleterre ?
Imaginez-vous que probablement aucun traducteur, interprète ou logiciel de traduction dans quelque langue que ce soit à partir du Français, ne connaîtra jamais cette version non linguistiquement homologuée et que tous traduiront donc par Grec, grecque ou venant de Grèce ?